Update with the Wiley Protocol

As promised, I'm reporting after 6 months on the protocol and still doing great. As a matter of fact my FSH has dropped to almost normal levels!! I've got about 10 points to go to be within normal range. A big difference from when I started in the 70's! Estradiol was within range, and my Progesterone is slowly going up.

Some things that have been notably different are:
-skin (ode to my beautiful skin! Sounds conceited I know, but after dealing with acne all the time before, I am so estatic that my skin has improved so drastically. I even feel like the wrinkling has decreased, not sure if that's from improved moisture I experience or what, but it's great! My feet and lips are not dry and parched either.)
-libido
-energy levels (except on the higher end of the P phase, I feel like not doing much, which was so like when I was cycling normally so it doesn't bother me at all.)
-mood (Again, on the higher end of the P phase, I feel more "into myself", but just like I was when I had periods. I actually don't feel indifferent or num anymore. I feel flirty, talkative, and open for the most part.)
-nails & hair (My nails are no longer brittle, and break easily. They look healthy, without the lines I had before. My hair grows!)


Some things I don't like about the protocol so far
-felt pretty bloated this last month at the end of the P phase (I messed up my doses this last month because I wasn't paying close attention to the calendar so I'm going to pay closer attention this month and see if I still have symptoms of this.)

-noticing on Day 13 there is a pretty big drop in E, which gives me headaches and anxiety, so the doctor may bring this up a little. We're going to give it one more month and see how I do.

-on the higher P days this last month I did not sleep well. Could be due to me messing up the calendar. Will keep you posted on this too.

-I still experience some vaginal dryness a few days of the protocol. I'm not sure why that is and hate to even mention this fact because compared to how I was before, I feel like I'm just getting plain picky about minor symptoms. However, I promised I would report it all. So that's the journey thus far....

to my fellow sisters in the jungle.

I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems for half of the month (in the progesterone phase). Your headaches, bloat and depression are the side effects most women report on the Wiley Protocol.

Glad you haven't reported hair loss and the unsightly linea nigra line on your abdomen yet.

The improved skin and nails are due to the estrogen-stimulating-collagen production part of the protocol. But any estrogen protocol will do that-- you probably knew that.

We've been waiting to hear about the footnote-checking you promised you would do. How's that going?

So glad you checked in!

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Originally Posted by Bannie I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems for half of the month (in the progesterone phase). Your headaches, bloat and depression are the side effects most women report on the Wiley Protocol. Glad you haven't reported hair loss and the unsightly linea nigra line on your abdomen yet. The improved skin and nails are due to the estrogen-stimulating-collagen production part of the protocol. But any estrogen protocol will do that-- you probably knew that. We've been waiting to hear about the footnote-checking you promised you would do. How's that going? So glad you checked in!

Hi Bannie,

I know the symptoms of bloating and headaches are just an imbalance of hormones, not with just with the WP, (evidence of this on the forum) and when I get the headaches I am not on the P phase at that time. I'm not sure why you refer to my symptoms being due to the Wiley Protocol, or that I "am still having challenges for half the month"??????? Maybe you have me confused with someone else?

I am also not sure any estrogen protocol having an estrogen-stimulating-collagen effect. I was on a high dose of estrogen before, and my nails were never like they are now. For me, I think it is all about homeostatic balance. If our bodies are balanced, everything reflects this.

As far as the footnotes, here is where I'm at and what I did: I highlighted everything that was cited that was of importance to me, and when cross-referencing these, it made me estatic at the evidence she referenced in her book. I am amazed at her forethought and revelations she came across and was willing to take the time to put together in a book. I've also done a great deal of research myself, before the protocol and since, of hormones, functions of the body, ect. so I feel comfortable with the knowledge Ms. Wiley has written about. If there are references that aren't in sync, I've yet to find them, but perhaps with your concerns of me being on the WP, you could post the footnotes you are concerned with and I will definitely take a look at them.

Take care!

Who told you your bloating and headaches were an imbalance of hormones? What precisely is the correct balance? We would love to have the answers to these questions.

I'm sure you can look up estrogen's collagen-stimulating effect easily by googling estrogen + collagen + skin. I don't know what kind of estrogen you were on before that you didn't see the effects. Even the E patches improve your skin.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't check the ample footnotes of the Wiley book before putting your life in the hands of somebody who has consistently lied about being a college drop out. You didn't say what footnotes you picked to check so we can't really compare notes to authenticate the sources. Please provide the footnotes you highlighted in your book.

We will be eagerly waiting for that. I know how strong you are on providing evidence. Please share your footnote-checking with us. For example, I'm sure you looked up the evidence for the dosing regimen.

I'm so glad you are well enough to check in. It is good to hear from somebody who has done the Wiley Protocol who has not crashed by the the third month. You have toughed it out with headaches, depression and bloat for six.

Congratulations on your strong constitution, Lovemonster!

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Originally Posted by Bannie Who told you your bloating and headaches were an imbalance of hormones? What precisely is the correct balance? We would love to have the answers to these questions.

Hi Bannie,

I have a feeling that any replies I give you are going to be impertinent to you but here it goes...

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I'm sure you can look up estrogen's collagen-stimulating effect easily by googling estrogen + collagen + skin. I don't know what kind of estrogen you were on before that you didn't see the effects. Even the E patches improve your skin.

I have been on several different HRT's before starting the Wiley Protocol, and I did look up collagen and estrogen and progesterone. Interestly, they both play a part in the skin, so I am thankful I am able to take both.

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I'm sorry to hear you didn't check the ample footnotes of the Wiley book before putting your life in the hands of somebody who has consistently lied about being a college drop out. You didn't say what footnotes you picked to check so we can't really compare notes to authenticate the sources. Please provide the footnotes you highlighted in your book. We will be eagerly waiting for that. I know how strong you are on providing evidence. Please share your footnote-checking with us. For example, I'm sure you looked up the evidence for the dosing regimen.

Bannie, I've spent the majority of the summer looking up a plethera of information in the book. There would not be ample room to provide you all the references I have looked up, nor do I feel its necessary for us to "compare notes so we can authenticate sources". You were right, I needed to consider the references in the book, and so I did look them up.... for me. I'm not sure why you are disapproving me doing this protocol, or possibly have the need to debate it? If it didn't work for you, it didn't work. I'm also not sure why you feel I am putting my life in my hands, as quality of life before the protocol was not good. I am just so grateful that there is something out there that works for me. I'm also seeing my doctor every 3 months, having labs done, and monitoring any symptoms. I've kept an open mind about the protocol both good and bad, so if I do experience challenges, I know what to look for.

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I'm so glad you are well enough to check in. It is good to hear from somebody who has done the Wiley Protocol who has not crashed by the the third month. You have toughed it out with headaches, depression and bloat for six. Congratulations on your strong constitution, Lovemonster!

Thank you. I strive to keep my integrity and so I further won't be posting any replies to you because I come here for encouragement and to share with others. It hurts my feelings that you continue to seek out and discredit and manipulate my posts. I'm hoping I didn't do anything to you personally to cause you to have this vendetta, and please accept my apologies if I did as I'm not one to intentionally try to hurt others. Take care and good luck with your regimens Bannie.

I have a feeling that any replies I give you are going to be impertinent to you but here it goes...

Gosh, Lovemonster, I don't think you are "impertinent" at all. You said months ago that you were committed to getting the facts and that you would report back. I'm so glad you have returned to give us the facts you found so you can educate us.


Bannie, I've spent the majority of the summer looking up a plethera of information in the book. There would not be ample room to provide you all the references I have looked up, nor do I feel its necessary for us to "compare notes so we can authenticate sources".

You promised, not just me, but the others on this forum that you would check the footnotes and report back so we could share the sources. Others here have asked (as you can see if you look back at repies to your post.) I'm not sure why you no longer want to compare notes. That's the whole purpose of a forum, isn't it?

Since you've "spent the majority of the summer" looking up sources in the book, I'm sure you can provide us with a half dozen citations off the top of your head.


I strive to keep my integrity and so I further won't be posting any replies to you because I come here for encouragement and to share with others.

I know how much you strive to keep your integrity which is why we knew we could rely on you to keep your word about giving us the footnotes that support the Wiley Protocol regimen. I am giving you complete encouragement and support on your mission.

It hurts my feelings that you continue to seek out and discredit and manipulate my posts.

Oh, dear Sweetie, I'm so sorry! I know what an emotional roller coaster the Wiley Protocol can be. I didn't think asking you for the footnotes you promised would upset you so much.

And I would never discredit your posts. I admire you for being the only woman left brave enough to enter a public forum defending the Wiley Protocol. Nobody else has the courage to defend a regimen that has been discredited on every internet forum. Even Wiley's own husband's forum hasn't posted a peep since before last Christmas.

]I'm hoping I didn't do anything to you personally to cause you to have this vendetta

Vendetta? Since 2004, every time someone asks the Wiley Camp a question, or asks for documentation, they claim the questioner has a "vendetta." How can asking questions be a vendetta? Please tell us.

I would think anyone who invented a protocol would be happy to answer questions.

Maybe that's why the Wiley Protocol entry got in trouble with the gentle folks over at Wikipedia. As you can see from the Wiki notes, Neil Raden (TS Wiley's husband), was sternly rebuked. Wikipedia doesn't let people make stuff up. You have to document what you say there.

Anyway, Lovemonster, when you feel better, I know you won't break the promise you made to us about posting the footnotes documenting the protocol. We know how much your integrity means to you and this forum.

Please don't let your HysterSisters down. We are rooting for you!

Bannie

This thread has been reported by several members and I thought it best to step in with a few comments.

First of all, its important that while we discuss difficult topics that we maintain a civil and polite discussion, even in the midst of possible disagreement, with a tone of kindness.

Second, it is well documented that the WP is under scrutiny by the medical community's "quack watch". Reading the wiki article and underlying "discussion page associated in the tab at top of that wiki article reveals much along with all the links referenced on wiki.

Hystersisters encourages balanced discussions regarding HRT and the different methods and choices we have. We, also, encourage proper research and caution any readers to "do their proper homework" and ask plenty of questions while getting more than one medical opinion for your optimum health.

Kathy, thanks for the reminders.

LOVEMONSTER, it is difficult for some of us, including me, to grasp how someone can fervently defend the WP given all the evidence against it. And it is even more difficult when that person cites various sources in support of her beliefs, commits to checking similar sources, then doesn't follow through. It wasn't just Bannie asking.

I would have more respect if you just said that you acknowledge all the contrary evidence (yes, it is evidence and not just opinion or conjecture), but you are choosing the WP anyway. Instead, it appears as if you have been trying to defend that which cannot be defended.

You are entitled to do what you feel is best for you. However, please realize that when you come in to a public forum to discuss it, you are opening yourself up to questions. The WP is very controversial, and posting about your experiences will not always be met with a hug, especially when it appears to some of us that you are ignoring the negative side effects and evidence. If you are ok ignoring them, that's fine. Just don't try to present "evidence", question other people's motives and research, expect answers from them but then be unwilling to answer their questions.

We all wish you the best of luck with whatever method you choose.

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Originally Posted by knittymcknitter Kathy, thanks for the reminders. LOVEMONSTER, it is difficult for some of us, including me, to grasp how someone can fervently defend the WP given all the evidence against it. And it is even more difficult when that person cites various sources in support of her beliefs, commits to checking similar sources, then doesn't follow through. It wasn't just Bannie asking.

Hi Knittymcknitter! Great to hear from you! Last time we talked through pm, I expressed the challenges I had at that time to research any evidence, which I believe was back in June? Bannie is the only member who replied to my current post so it wasn't readily apparent to me that anyone was still following my journey. I apologize for this.

Because of the overwhelming task it was to look through each source in the book, I dedicated myself to rereading and highlighting the information that was important to me. I then went to the references and read the sources I was able to find on PubMed. Bannie requested my information, however, there is not ample room to post all of the references I looked up. I am however starting a blog and will be adding each one as I can. There will be no need to "authenticate sources" as I will just copy from PubMed.

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I would have more respect if you just said that you acknowledge all the contrary evidence (yes, it is evidence and not just opinion or conjecture), but you are choosing the WP anyway.

I'm not sure what contrary evidence you are referring to Knitty. Some sisters have stated problems with the footnotes, however, no one is willing to share which ones those are. Maybe everyone is relying on me to do all the research? I'm really confused as to why that is not shared if its known evidence.

As for Wiley not being college educated or lying about whether she was, I never denied or debated this fact. In fact, I believe I stated that it was inconsequential to me because 1) I had already done a great deal of research myself and can post all the books I've read if your interested (In hindsight I wish I would have kept articles, but I didn't, however have started a collection again) and 2) I am working with a great doctor, not Wiley
3) I'd exasberated all my other options, and 4)college education is a respected path, however, some of the greatest people were not college educated.

You may have to refresh my memory on the evidence that you are referring to. I've had a full brain and a busy schedule this summer! I did touch on the sources provided by Formby, but if you'd like I can pull up the articles and hightlight the areas of concern I had with it. Not to mention, I wasn't able to find any other references to date on progesterone buildup, or for instance, progesterone causing hair loss. However, I did come across many articles on hypothyroid and hyperprolactemia causing hair loss. It seems many women struggle with their thyroid on rhythmicliving, so maybe this is why given the HRT regimen of the WP, they had those particular symptoms???? I will post these articles to the blog as well.

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Instead, it appears as if you have been trying to defend that which cannot be defended. You are entitled to do what you feel is best for you. However, please realize that when you come in to a public forum to discuss it, you are opening yourself up to questions. The WP is very controversial, and posting about your experiences will not always be met with a hug, especially when it appears to some of us that you are ignoring the negative side effects and evidence. If you are ok ignoring them, that's fine. Just don't try to present "evidence", question other people's motives and research, expect answers from them but then be unwilling to answer their questions. We all wish you the best of luck with whatever method you choose.

Knitty, This is what I don't understand. I wasn't aware I needed approval on which HRTs regimens were ok to share and which weren't. If you read my first posts, I was only posting to share my journey. I stressed the fact that it was controversial and everyone needed to research it for themselves, and I stressed that there was no documented research that it worked. I did spend time clarifying some information about the protocol because there was some misinformation posted about it. Being part of rhythmicliving, I'm sure you have seen this a well, of women who came on board stating they tried the WP, but it wasn't the WP, but a knock off. I also did not deny the fact that some people have had negative symptoms on it, and even brought up the rhythmic living group so women could research it for themselves. I understand that we are all very individual, so I'm confused as to why I have to justify my experience with my HRT regimen, that's all. I don't mind sharing what I know with those who are willing to share as well, and will allow me the freedom to have my experiences without manipulating them for their gain.
ie. both quotes were out of context of what I wrote

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I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems for half of the month (in the progesterone phase).

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You have toughed it out with headaches, depression and bloat for six.

Thank you for your well wishes, and I wish you the same!

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Originally Posted by LOVEMONSTER Being part of rhythmicliving, I'm sure you have seen this a well, of women who came on board stating they tried the WP, but it wasn't the WP, but a knock off.

Um, I'm not sure where this is coming from. I'm not a part of rhythmic living. I never said I was, nor did I imply that I was.

As I said in posts in your other thread, the first I heard about the WP was when you posted about it some time before my hyst. I read up on it, and decided not to use it. I found the rhythmic concept interesting, but I decided it didn't make sense for me.

I'm going to step aside. I am unable to follow your logic. Best wishes.