Studies about Soy and Black Cohosh - INFORMATION ONLY DO NOT REPLY

*Please note* this thread is for information on soy and black cohosh, and for best support one should post in the Oasis message board where discussion and others are able to find and reply to your posts.



I do want to point out that there are articles in the pulldown menu at www.hormonejungle.com about soy, black cohosh, and red clover. I was looking for possible help for the Desert. Warnings, contraindications, and what benefits that were known when I wrote them are there. Here, though, I'm going to post accounts of studies that are appearing now as updates to those articles. So, here are bits of the puzzle--pro and con. I think I'm going to exclude commentary for the sake of making this thread easier to look through quickly and because plenty of commentary happens on the regular threads. Though, if someone comes across a study or a good link, please add it. Someday, we'll get this figured out!




This isn't a health warning, but it is warning that if your problem is low hormones, that soy might make things worse. Soy isoflavones, so they're talking about the pill form, with the concentrated levels, seem to prevent the conversion of androgens (which your adrenal gland can make) to estrogen, which has the health benefits. So, taking soy in a pill could make the effects of no HRT worse.

This was from a paper presented at the British Endocrine Society's annual meeting, so it's early days yet for this research.

The researcher concluded that we really don't know how these chemicals act in the body. They could be weak estrogen mimics, estrogen blockers (anti-estrogens), or enzyme inhibitors.

So, there's another clue that there is probably much more benefit as well as symptom relief from whole soy protein (tofu, soy milk, etc.).

This is a study of the chemistry of soy in mice--since they can't disset us

It's a small piece of the puzzle, but if I save all the pieces here, we might start to get a picture of when to take soy. Two groups of mice were given one of the phytoestrogens in soy--genistein. One group was injected and the other group ate it. Both groups had fewer immune cells and their thymus, which helps make immune cells, shrank. The blood levels of genistein in the mice were lower than in humans, so it's a bit of a worry.

The study was funded by the United Soybean Board and the Illinois Council on Food and Agricultural Research.

I think this is another piece of the argument that it's better to eat soy foods than to take pills of phytoestrogens. I read about this study in the Reuter's news wire (which unfortunately expires in a few days or I'd provide the link--but www.webmd.com often picks up the Reuter's stories).

Soy foods are the ones with the demonstrated benefits. The American Dietetic Association is recommending limiting soy to 100 mg a day, or three servings of food. It does not recommend the pills.

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2002;99:7616-

I reported on this before, but I found a more detailed report of this paper given at a convention by investigators from the University of Goettingen in Goettingen, Germany.

It was a relatively small study, but it was double blind (neither the women nor their immediate doctors knew what they were taking), and if you don't have big buck support, you can't afford to run a big study. They took three groups of normally postmenopausal women and put one group on a placebo (sugar pill), one group on Premarin, and the last group on black cohosh.

So, estrogen and black cohosh were both better than a placebo at hot flashes and the other usual symptoms (they didn't specify, but it's usually the palpitations, skin itching, dizziness, that are in the standard questionaires about menopause). Black cohosh helped with vaginitis.

The big news is that black cohosh helped with some of the markers of bone loss and with the HDL/LDL cholesterol levels (perhaps better than the estrogen) AND showed no effect on endometrial lining of the uterus--which is great news for endo sufferers if this study is supported by later research. In other words, it's behaving more like a designer estrogen like Raloxifene--plugging into some receptors and blocking other receptors of estrogen--turning on some functions and turning off others.

The researchers pointed out that test tube and animal studies have shown that the type of black cohosh used in the study is not active on mammary cells, and therefore may not have breast cancer risks. Of course, they'll keep researching this, but it's good news.

The form of black cohosh was 40 mg of a product available in Germany called Klimadynona or Menofema.

But this part is important if you look into taking black cohosh. The way the black cohosh is processed makes a big difference. The head researcher pointed out in his talk that many preparations of black cohosh are isoproponylic but this kind of black cohosh that they tested was an aqueous ethanolic extract. "The way the phytoestrogen is extracted from black cohosh determines whether it has an oestrogenic or anti-oestrogenic effect," Dr. Wuttke said. "For example, isoproponylic extracts have no effect on the vaginal epithelium, but ours promoted vaginal epithelial growth while having a neutral effect on the uterus."

Hi, I had a TAH on July 15, 2002. I opted not to take any hormones. The week before I went into surgery was when the TV news and Newspapers were screaming how harmful it was/is to go on HRT. I'm not terrified that I am doing more harm than good. Is there really an answer? I have been taking Black Cohash for about a year now. It seems to help a bit. Is there anyone out there like me who has not gone on any hormones?
MarianA

Hi! I had a TAH on November 7, 2001. I went on the hormone patch at first, then the pill and now I take estroven. My chemical got all messed up because I also take Zoloft for depression/chemical imbalance. It's been 10 months and feels like 10 years. I'm just now starting to feel like myself again. The HRT made me so grouchy and moody that my psychiatrist upped my Zoloft up so high that I slept all the time. I kept going back to my obgyn and we, along with my psy. decided that I would go off the hormones, but take calcium (either food or those chewy things) and drink soy milk. I have to say that I found soy milk disgusting and force myself to drink a few sips at a time. I heard about something callled NutriSoy from a friend. I kind of just found the Estroven at CVS. I've also cut back my caffeine and sugar my 2/3 and feel better now than I have since my surgery. This Summer I began swimming and just generally being more active. I should also tell you that I smoke and am overweight. I didn't quite understand all of the previous posts. What is vaginal epithelial? And Vaginitis? Now I wonder if I should drink the Soy Milk or just leave it alone. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Hi Piggy,
I too smoke, which was the main reason for not going on any hormones. I DO take Black Cohash along with my vitamins. I also take Calcium, which we not only need, but I have read it helps with our mood swings. I decided that after getting my TAH I would deal with each symptom as it came instead of taking a pill to prevent what might happen. I was afraid of depression, because in the past I've had a tendency to lean towards it. But I have to say, that none of my feelings have been overwhelming. I do know one thing for sure, since I feeling better physcially, I'm becoming more active and that in itself helps the most!!
As for the Soy I will try to incorporate it into my diet. I just haven't found a way yet. I have heard from others that it is gross!!
Cutting back on caffeine was very smart.I drink a bit to much coffee, but as soon as I return to work, that will stop.
I too do not know what vaginal epithelial or vainitis is. But I've been on the Black Cohash for about a year and haven't had any problems there.
It's all trial and error! I'm just so happy that I don't have to deal with getting my period on top of all this.
Good Luck,
Marian A

Piggy.
Have you tried Silk chocolate soy milk? It's really quite good!

Sue,
Thanks for the tip...I will try it! I tried Vanilla Silk, but not Chocolate.

Thanks again!

Patty, Piggy

I tried a product from GNC that is soy powder -flavored, and you mix it with milk or water. the chocolate truffle is really quite good! the texture is a bit weird it;s very thick, but I will keep using that! Oh -ti was made by Twin Lab.

Annicat:
Thanks for the suggestion! I'm actually going to GNC this weekend, so I will look for it.

Thanks again!

Piggy